tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post14397155670505832..comments2024-03-14T06:20:59.015+00:00Comments on The Notion Club Papers - an Inklings blog: Was accent did Merry and Pippin have? Who gets it right? Bruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-25809519635402260072021-06-07T16:06:59.426+01:002021-06-07T16:06:59.426+01:00Thank you!
Good thought about 'Whitfoot'...Thank you! <br /><br />Good thought about 'Whitfoot' - while your Wodehouse reference made me immediately think of 'Fatty' for Fredegar as a Wodehousean sort of nickname. Some quick browsing around via Tolkien Gateway makes me wonder about nicknames and nickname-y names: e.g., "The name Bolger is a reference to the 'bulged' size of the average Hobbit belly, referring to their fatness and tubbiness and presumably begun as a nickname. [...] It was a translation of Westron Bolgra of similar meaning." 'Fatty' would 'double down' on that, applying hereditary 'bulginess' personally while alliterating with 'Fredegar' (I wonder what that is in Westron? - I don't know if 'we' know...). A different sort of nickname in some ways from 'Bullroarer' Took, and yet... might we find something similar in Wodehouse, here, too? <br /><br />But what of the first names 'Banazîr' and 'Ranugad'? - they seem very 'nickname-y' as first names - would they have been 'given' at birth? - or is there some sort of ancient Elven influence in multiple 'given' names through the course of life? Or are the personal 'birth' names of Sam and Hamfast unrecorded?(!)<br /><br />Coincidentally discussing Sam and Tony Weller and their dialectical pronunciation at lunch, it suddenly occurred to me to wonder if there might be a playful Tolkienian wink in naming Sam Gamgee 'Sam' and giving him such a likeably distinctive father? <br /><br />David Llewellyn DoddsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-52417985643952526972021-06-07T06:34:58.727+01:002021-06-07T06:34:58.727+01:00@David - Many readers notice the careful way in wh...@David - Many readers notice the careful way in which Sam's speech - as Frodo's servant - is differentiated from Frodo's - the Sam (or Master Samwise) vs Mr Frodo/ Master distinction... which is dropped in extreme peril and then resumed when danger has passed. <br /><br />But apparently, many readers miss the same thing between Sam and Merry & Pippin, which indicate M&P's greatly superior social stats. <br /><br />Or that Frodo, Merry and Pippin are all on first name terms - as befits their status as gentry and being 'cousins' (and despite the age differences, or that Frodo is the leader).<br /><br />As I commented in the linked paper - the family trees show us that Sam's family join the gentry in the next generation; when Elanor marries Fastred of Greenholm (an aristocratic 'of' name) and they become Wardens of the new Shire colony of Westmarch - equivalent to Masters of Buckland. Another daughter of Sam's - Goldilocks - marries Pippin's son and heir, to become wife of the Thain and chief Took. <br /><br />Sam himself becomes Mayor several times, which seems to be more of a higher functionary ('middle class') administrative job, as it was in Medieval and early modern England (e.g. Shakespeare's father) - at any rate the previous mayor, Will Whitfoot, does not seem to be from one of the gentry hobbit families. Maybe his surname of 'white foot' indicates he was a miller (a skilled tradesman - lower middle class)? Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-29679372997139727862021-06-07T01:55:16.704+01:002021-06-07T01:55:16.704+01:00Very interesting - thanks (also, to Deoguwulf)! L...Very interesting - thanks (also, to Deoguwulf)! Lots of food for thought, here - e.g., how much 'room' for regional dialect is there in the Shire, both in terms of area and local rootedness? (My parents-in-law came from different villages in Dutch Limburg, and joked about each other's differing 'local' accents...) And, indeed, how much 'class' difference is there, in language - and what does this have to do with 'education'? E.g., might Bilbo's and Frodo's - and to varying extents Merry's, Pippin's, and Sam's - have changed in the course of their lives as a result of (1) 'learning' and (2) travel? How much does Tolkien give written dialectical/speech-stylistic clues, himself? And, insofar as he does, how much of that is meant to show decisions in 'translating' the Red Book?<br /><br />A comparison sprang to mind while reading - Dimble's discussion with Jane and Mrs. Dimble in That Hideous Strength, I.5, about late Roman Britain - "one section of society that was almost purely Roman", but "further up country, in the out-of-the-way places, [...] little courts ruled by real old British under-kings" - and the Atlantean/'Numinorian' connection Lewis introduces re. Merlin. What place might Númenorean heritage and Elven - and Gandalfian - connections have on speech as well as cultural features of, and differences among, hobbits?<br /><br />David Llewellyn Dodds Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-88710597986459545982021-06-05T21:23:20.813+01:002021-06-05T21:23:20.813+01:00(Glad to be here! Still plodding on.)
The world ...(Glad to be here! Still plodding on.) <br /><br />The world is yet to recover from the Norman Conquest, and it really is a world-wide problem, not just ours anymore. Deogolwulfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02197539477668018797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-40316126282820958202021-06-05T21:08:38.821+01:002021-06-05T21:08:38.821+01:00@D (Good to hear from you!)
- "The Shire is...@D (Good to hear from you!) <br /><br />- "The Shire is in some respects as though the Normans never came ..."<br /><br />Indeed. The ruffians did invade and briefly imposed their alien rule; but (unlike with the Normans) were scoured from the Shire before they could murder and expel the native aristocracy and settle the yoke of tyranny onto the people.<br /><br />https://notionclubpapers.blogspot.com/2020/07/why-was-tolkien-averse-to-france-and.html Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-137216923927887042021-06-05T20:49:10.175+01:002021-06-05T20:49:10.175+01:00Mind you, we might think of Merry and Pippin as la...Mind you, we might think of Merry and Pippin as landed gentry, old-rooted in the folk-community, no less noble (often more!) than those sycophantic upstarts gaining their titles from a king, and having speech and manners somewhat in common with their underlings. The Shire is in some respects as though the Normans never came . . .Deogolwulfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02197539477668018797noreply@blogger.com