tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post101350372242325324..comments2024-03-28T13:10:04.655+00:00Comments on The Notion Club Papers - an Inklings blog: Numenorean religion imaginedBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-46309090994069256722013-06-07T23:56:07.718+01:002013-06-07T23:56:07.718+01:00Greetings from the author of the fanfiction story ...Greetings from the author of the fanfiction story "Magweth Pengolodh"!<br /><br />"What is depicted is a non-Jewish pre-Christian Temple monotheism, with a divinely ordained (anointed) King who mediates between his people and God. " I agree with your take on my view of Numenorean spirituality, with one caveat: I wasn't picturing monotheism! "The One and the Many," Tar-Minastir says...and then there's the rites to Unien and Osse that take place at other points in the story. That said, I did picture the relationship with Illuvatar, the Creator, as unique and central, a direct connection to the sacred compared to the more folkloric relationship with the two Maiar, and a point of difference from the Elves' more Valar-focused spirituality.<br /><br />And DID the Numenoreans lose their religion - or did the possibility of such "hallows" become linked to the White Tree? Remember the scene where Aragorn and Gandalf go and find the White Tree's sapling, in a similar mountainside site?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-23705119929712128642013-06-05T19:33:57.608+01:002013-06-05T19:33:57.608+01:00@W - I explained what I meant by 'Temple relig...@W - I explained what I meant by 'Temple religion' in my response to your first comment: It is a type of religion, and does not refer to a building (or the lack thereof). Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-83009203878013739252013-06-05T16:00:10.153+01:002013-06-05T16:00:10.153+01:00Here we go. In The Silmarillion (p. 261) we read ...Here we go. In The Silmarillion (p. 261) we read that on the mountain Meneltarma in Numenor there was a high place hallowed to Eru, "open and unroofed." This indicates that if there was any man-built structure there, it not only lacked a roof, but walls (since it is "open"). Therefore we must say that, by the will of Eru, there is no temple there. On page 273 we read that "Sauron cuased to be built upon the hill in the midst of the city of the Numenoreans, Armenelos the Golden, a mighty temple." Whatever Tolkien, as a Roman Catholic, may have thought of the worldly splendor of Rome, etc., it seems clear that, in the ages of Middle-earth that he chronicles, there is simply no place for temples or other buildings for wholesome worship of the true God. I think he is aligning himself with the Old Testament (most of which must occur later than the First, Second, and Third Ages), in which God's people at first have no fixed temple, but eventually one is built in the reign of Solomon -- an event from which worldly pride is not absent. In the Gospels, Our Lord speaks of the destruction of the successor Temple (which occurs AD 70), with no future earthly restoration proposed. One must also ponder the Epistle to the Hebrews. Tolkien's imagination aligns with these things. I haven't read the fan fiction that you cite to see whether its author's does.Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-76713383658685537722013-06-05T12:16:24.557+01:002013-06-05T12:16:24.557+01:00@Karl:
I agree with your assessment. As I said, t...@Karl:<br /><br />I agree with your assessment. As I said, the analogies are superficial, but striking (perhaps if you squint in the right way).<br /><br />This is probably indicative of the fact that Tolkien really was making strides if the process of writing mythology. Probably the best sign is that, in spite of Tolkien explicitly disavowing himself from writing allegory, people keep finding resonances in his work to real-world history, especially ones that he definitely <i>could not have</i> intentionally crafted as allegory.<br /><br />I am not sure how the Inklings' idea of 'rehabilitating English mythology' would have come out in a real world, and indeed to what extent that was their explicit project; mostly because the old mythology was presented as ostensibly-true, or 'true enough' (because of its deep resonance with reality), whereas the Legendarium is presented in a medium that explicitly makes it ostensibly-fictional.Arakawahttp://arakawa.github.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-24292878576096049252013-06-04T18:54:45.228+01:002013-06-04T18:54:45.228+01:00@W - By Temple I meant a specific sacred place whi...@W - By Temple I meant a specific sacred place which could not be replicated elsewhere - and I was thinking by analogy of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem that was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70 - but could not be rebuilt. The Numenorean outdoor 'Temple' to The one (i.e. the sacred mountain of Meneltarma) was destroyed by The One, and therefore presumably could not (without blasphemy) be replaced with a substitute mountain in Middle Earth. So the Numenoreans in exile simply lost their religion and its practice - as happens with a Temple religion when there is no Temple. All that remained was a formal process of remembering their religion as a grace before meals.Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-51764424687664942542013-06-04T18:41:56.542+01:002013-06-04T18:41:56.542+01:00Wasn't Sauron the one who prompted the Numenor...Wasn't Sauron the one who prompted the Numenoreans to develop a Temple religion?Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-860192238726267192013-06-03T19:43:54.697+01:002013-06-03T19:43:54.697+01:00@Arakawa -
The analogy between Numenor and Japan ...@Arakawa -<br /><br />The analogy between Numenor and Japan had never occurred to me, but it works up to a point, which is to say it can be instructive to consider it, though the correspondences break down if examined, just as they do if we interpret "The Shadow of the Past" as a response to the resurgence of German militarism. <br /><br />Ar-Pharazon launches his war of imperialist expansion and inflicts a crushing defeat on the ruler of Middle-Earth, but this is only the first battle of a bitter war that continues until the enemy summons elemental powers and obliterates just that corner of Numenor in which the remnant of the Faithful had their refuge.Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06030980000235824571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-19137306072951726062013-06-02T18:09:12.784+01:002013-06-02T18:09:12.784+01:00"Incidentally, the author is certainly not Ch..."Incidentally, the author is certainly not Christian - to put it mildly - but that only goes to show..."<br /><br />Ah, interesting. For whatever reason, Numenor in my mind is linked with Japan and Shinto, about as much as Christianity. A skilled depiction of them having an open-air religion, with offerings left to ancestral monarchs, does not really weaken the connection....<br /><br />It's a superficial resemblance, yes, but for whatever reason Tolkien hit on the archetype of an island nation of people with an advanced civilization and a sense of themselves as having special kinship to otherworldly beings (Elves or kami), who eventually squander their special dispensation through arrogance. Taking, in the case of Japan, the form of a futile and traumatic war of imperialist expansion, followed by establishment of a socially decaying secular technocracy.<br /><br />(Disclaimer: I am not Japanese, but as my nickname suggests, I do have a certain interest in their situation.)Arakawahttp://arakawa.github.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-69387000163570381392013-06-02T15:17:50.294+01:002013-06-02T15:17:50.294+01:00@WmJas - If you recall, like CS Lewis, I came to C...@WmJas - If you recall, like CS Lewis, I came to Christianity via theism - and this piece pushed me towards theism perhaps by the way it seemed to say something about the meaning of the sacred, a religious community, and mortality.<br /><br />What is depicted is a non-Jewish pre-Christian Temple monotheism, with a divinely ordained (anointed) King who mediates between his people and God. <br /><br />When the Temple was destroyed (at the downfall of Numenor) the religion was destroyed, and the exiled Numenoreans (like Faramir) were left only with a remembrance of their religion (like the elementary 'grace before supper' in the Window on the West chapter of LotR)<br /><br />Related pieces were the LotR Appendix on Aragorn an Arwen (the death of Aragorn), and the Debate of Finrod and Andreth from volume 9 of History of Middle Earth. <br /><br />Incidentally, the author is certainly not Christian - to put it mildly - but that only goes to show...Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-75831038960506527182013-06-02T13:05:15.753+01:002013-06-02T13:05:15.753+01:00It's a beautiful piece of writing, but I wonde...It's a beautiful piece of writing, but I wonder if you'd be willing to elaborate on how it was instrumental in your conversion. The connection is not obvious, at least not to me.Wm Jashttp://wmjas.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com