tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post2695922599215119045..comments2024-03-14T06:20:59.015+00:00Comments on The Notion Club Papers - an Inklings blog: Tolkien nods - the introductory description of ArwenBruce Charltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-44740219961515184082018-02-04T07:02:29.018+00:002018-02-04T07:02:29.018+00:00@David - Something of that sort might explain what...@David - Something of that sort might explain what Tolkien was aiming at - but I still think he missed the mark!Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-86501651503999089062018-02-04T01:13:35.291+00:002018-02-04T01:13:35.291+00:00Thinking out loud...
Goldberry remains incidental...Thinking out loud...<br /><br />Goldberry remains incidental (so to put it), as does the mysterious, quietly magnificent Tom (I like the speculation that he may be one of the Valar...!), and Galadriel, though far more central, is both secluded and august, a long-established Elven Queen, but the centrality of Arwen to the whole action of the story requires a much more delicate touch: too prominent attention to the fact that she is 2711 years old when she first meets Aragorn, could easily be jarring to a reader - or even an Elf-loving hobbit. Her impressiveness (to use an inadequate word) must glimmer rather than flash out, and the reader by quiet pondering be allowed eventually to figure out the full picture.<br /><br />It would be interesting to compare the artistry (and/or inadequacies) of Tolkien's handling and its effect with those in various works like Rider Haggard's She (and sequels, etc.), Buchan's "The Grove of Ashtoreth", and the Iliad, where Peleus and Thetis and even more so the Aeneid where Anchises and Venus are concerned.<br /><br />David Llewellyn Dodds<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-33123997213926639172018-02-01T06:21:14.571+00:002018-02-01T06:21:14.571+00:00@Philip - I don't see any problem with Aragorn...@Philip - I don't see any problem with Aragorn - although his origin was insecure<br /><br />https://notionclubpapers.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/tolkien-nods-saga-of-trotters-feet.html<br /><br />I'd say that this was invisible in the final text. Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-28212138361049820852018-01-31T23:03:06.947+00:002018-01-31T23:03:06.947+00:00I think the real problem is Aragorn. Tolkien took ...I think the real problem is Aragorn. Tolkien took a long time to see that Trotter had to make way for Strider, the ranger who is really the man born to be king. Of all the characters other than the hobbits, it is Aragorn who changes and develops the most as the story unfolds. Think of his decisions at the breaking of the Fellowship, his claiming of the palantir and so on. But we see the process entirely through the eyes of others, and in consequence Arwen's great choice between the elves and men is only revealed at the back of the book.<br />Philip Nealhttp://philipneal.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-32279351675185351382018-01-31T18:57:33.764+00:002018-01-31T18:57:33.764+00:00@David - I think that would improve things. I pres...@David - I think that would improve things. I presume if JRRT had realised there was a problem, he could easily have fixed it. <br /><br />@Zach - Thanks for that nice comment!<br /><br />Bruce Charltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09615189090601688535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-76038507031750199922018-01-31T16:59:50.930+00:002018-01-31T16:59:50.930+00:00I was going to say "it's the Luthien thin...I was going to say "it's the Luthien thing", but then you nailed it. He had Luthien as his Beatrice for so long that maybe he just never had to work to define Arwen the way he did, say, Goldberry or Eowyn. It's also maybe that Arwen is sort of a nullity as a character in the book. Obviously of great importance, but without even so much of an arc as Galadriel (let alone Eowyn). I don't know where you'd squeeze in an Arwen plot, of course, and I have no quibble with her being on the sidelines for this story. In fact, the attempts to shoe-horn Arwen into the film plots are some of the weakest elements, in my opinion. Anyway. It just seems like maybe Arwen was too close to home to write fairly about.<br /><br />Makes me think about how Le Guin was reluctant to even write female characters, because of her tendency to hide herself by writing about the "other". (Based on an article in the New Yorker I read last week, reflecting on her death.) Arwen/Luthien/Edith might just be too close for perspective or for more intimacy in description. <br /><br />I've just finished reading LotR to my children again this last week. It's been a wonderful experience. I can't remember if this is the second or the third time through with them, but some are young enough that it's like new, and the older ones are catching the deeper details with me. My oldest (13) even read the Silmarillion so he could understand references to Elbereth and eagles, and all the other references to the "legendarium" sprinkled through LotR. <br /><br />Thanks to some of the notes and thoughts here in your blog, I was able to share some new thoughts with them; I've been grateful to follow along with your ideas and thoughts, and the great references you've shared. Zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454555770949951135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2410716623228444076.post-47231399782232941422018-01-31T16:48:09.534+00:002018-01-31T16:48:09.534+00:00Interesting! It never struck me... Would it make a...Interesting! It never struck me... Would it make a difference if "Such loveliness in living thing Frodo had never seen before nor imagined in his mind" came before the descriptio embodying his reflection on what are distinctly (half?-)Elvish characteristics? Or is that clause, for all its delicate 'heightening' through alliteration and syntax, too much description rather than evocation, wherever it were placed?<br /><br />David Llewellyn DoddsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com